When I first started dating my boyfriend a year ago, I quickly realized his two older sisters had trained him well. He opened doors for me, offered me his jacket if it was cold, and offered to carry my bag if it was heavy. Of course, he meant well in all of these gestures, and I appreciated his generosity.
However, at some point I started wondering: why should he be cold so I can be just a little warmer? Why should he always have to hold open the door for me? Why should he carry a bag filled with all
my stuff?
Of course, I'd never turn away a guy for acting like a gentleman, and I am a real sucker for romance, but something about all this didn't sit quite right with me. Why should the guy in a heterosexual relationship be encouraged to offer whatever he can to his girlfriend or wife without the same exact treatment in return?
We see it in movies all the time; girls are always falling for the knight in shining armor, the guy who goes out of his way to be a gentleman. And things like this do translate into real life-- men are praised for being "that guy" from the romance film.
But all of this logic seems a bit ancient to me. Perhaps it was okay for men to go out of their way to assist women when women were viewed as lesser parts of society. Don't get me wrong; I would never refuse a door held open to me by a man on the grounds that I could open the door by myself, just in the same way that I wouldn't refuse a door held open to be by another woman. But society used to support the idea that women "needed" assistance from men. I, however, don't feel incapable of holding open a door for myself, and most importantly, I don't want men to think we're incapable.
Yes, this seems extreme, and chances are that men don't think women are incapable of opening the door themselves, but some men might, deep down, think women don't deserve equal workplace rights, and maybe little gender roles like this one are a part of the overall problem.
Little things add up, and in a time when potential leaders of our country think it's okay for men to make oppressive decisions about women, maybe it's time that something changes in the culture of our society. To borrow a metaphor from feminist Marilyn Frye (see picture above), think of it as a bird cage with many wires keeping the bird inside. If you look at just one wire, i.e. men going out of their way to hold open doors for women, your focus is too specific and you will fail not only to see the issue with that one wire, but also with the greater problem at hand. Frye then explains that it is not until you step back and look at the whole cage, with all of the wires culminating, that you realize how trapped the bird (or woman) is.
What do you think? In today's culture, knowing women are completely competent and equal members of society, is there still room for gentlemen and gender roles in heterosexual relationships? If not, what is the solution?
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Comments (42)
How about we teach people to open doors for one another, etc, for kindness' sake, rather than for genitalia's sake? Rather than using gender as a bullshit excuse to not open doors or not offer to pay for meals or not hold car doors open, etc., maybe we could all benefit from having people, male and female, doing these things for one another.
My boyfriend is a southern gentleman, holds doors open, pulls out my seat for me, offers to carry something heavy and its a real breathe of fresh air from all of the other losers I've dated. He doesn't do it because he -has- to, he does it because he wants to. We should all do nice things for our SOs, because it shows how much we appreciate them.
I have been thinking we need a return to more gentlemanly and lady-like behavior for some time now, but @QuantumStorm@xanga - makes a good point, too. I often hold doors open for others, and it's not about gender. It's about having good manners.
Gender roles are stupid, IMO. I have no time for them and I think they have absolutely no place in modern, civilized society. I believe in a system where men and women are socially equal. I don't do nice things for someone just because of their sex (well, I don't do nice things for anyone anyway, so that's a hypothetical). Sorry, doesn't work that way. Women begged for years for equal treatment and by god that's what they're going to get from me. Sometimes equality does in fact come with a price (hold your own doors, carry your own heavy things [exception: unless you're not physically strong enough to do so], pay your own way on a date, etc.).
You asked for it, you got it, so don't complain to me.
@QuantumStorm@xanga - Hear, hear, Q... I completely agree!!!
@lonelywanderer2@xanga - Exactly about having good manners.
I don't like the word "gentleman" for obvious reasons. Like it's some kind of upgrade to being a man and the whole concept ends up stereotyped into what a figurative man should do and should be like instead of men actually embodying the ideal as individuals, making it seem as though a man needs a reason to aspire to be a good/better person and the word itself seems to lead many to compartmentalize specific good behaviors to how they narrowly relate to inter-gender relations instead of every facet of daily life.
While I appreciate chivalrous gestures, I also find it insulting as there most definitely some sexist undertones behind such gestures. Of course, a guy can just be a nice courteous person, so my rule of thumb is accept it if it seems like he is nice to everyone and would do the same for someone else regardless of gender or status.
A lot of people often think of it as chivalry; some others think that it fits into the realm that you already covered, where men are supposed to be the provider and protector of the female.
I do it because I hate to see her cold, I want to ler her in first, or I just like to help. I do also hold the door open for men, children, and everybody else. It's a matter of altruism for me because I know that at least I can make someone feel better by just one of these gestures.
well i mean...someone needs to fuck the lower-quality girls, right?
@lianO_Owang@xanga - it is nice to see that i'm not the only one in the world who can spell the word "definitely".
I think that people like to try and date phrases like "Gentleman", as if it hasn't evolved along with society and that for some reason there is a contention about what it is.
Gentlemen have gone through phases, from it being a note on wealth and social standing, to being the stereotype of behavior that gentry exhibited to their peers. Then it jumped the pond and became about how a man should act around a woman and something about women being helpless... *withholds rant on the bastardization of old-world ideals in the US*
It is like @QuantumStorm@xanga said, everyone should (regardless of if they do or not) be courteous and exhibit good manners towards each other, that is called being a good human being. If people want that to be considered gentlemanly or lady-like then fine....
.. but personally I reserve the denotation of 'Gentleman' for males going beyond the call of being decent human. Men who really go out of their way to help out their fellow human. The same applies to being a true Lady.
This isn't gentleman behavior, it's called being a good and thoughtful human being to the person you care about. If a woman did these things for you I bet you wouldn't consider her gender a factor at all. Stop trying to analyze these situations just because someone has a cock.
I can only speak for my own intentions. I hold doors open for women but I hold them open for men too. I let others get in and out of elevators ahead of me. To me it's a matter of showing respect and courtesy toward others no matter who they are or what they look like. Of course my secret revenge is to let someone go through a revolving door ahead of me. He or she has to do the work pushing the door and I scoot along for the ride in the door section behind them. :P
As to the other part of your equation it's certainly true there are "gentlemen" who don't view women as capable of making their own decisions or taking care of themselves. I'm not one of those men but I will still hold a door open, offer my jacket, etc. In fact for me personally the jacket thing is easy. I don't get cold easily. I go out in a short sleeved shirts until the temperature dips into the mid 40s and I used to walk barefoot in snow. That's neither here nor there but my point is just as one should not assume a guy to be a gem because he holds a door open one should not assume he secretly thinks a woman inferior.
an important but neglected prong in the cage should have been handwriting.
i don't suspect that the two paradigms you subscribe to simultaneously are compatible. either you can be outraged by the act of people being nice to you without reason, or you can accept it with good grace.
in my view the problem isn't gentlemen it is the people who are outraged over shameful things. people who don't realize the attention they draw is against them rather than with them, or who just don't care.
the simplest thought i wish others would aspire towards is to stop romanticizing victimization. don't try to make oneself, or others, victims. there are enough people who are genuinely hurt to make the power grab indecent. the power grab itself is part of the gender narrative... to get beyond it people would have to choose to aspire to be better to others tan they want to be.
It does not have to be this complicated. Act like a decent human being and you will, most of the time, be treated like a decent human being in return.
I don't know if it translates from movies that well. I've definitely been chastised way more than thanked or even noticed for doing those so called gentlemanly things. Just pay attention to the person doing those acts. If they only do it towards women and seem to hold it against them, then maybe you're right and it's a superiority thing. However if they do the same for anyone/everyone then it's just the way the person is and you should just be happy.
Men didn't hold doors open because women couldn't do it themselves but as a reminder to the men to properly respect the women around them. A man gives his coat to a woman, she gives her coat to their children... It is a gentlemanly thing to do, but obviously a woman should also be aware of the man's needs.
I love it when a guy I'm dating does those things for me. It's just the way I was bought up - but in saying that I always open doors for other people and pull out chairs etc And I do lots of nice things for my boyfriends in return in different ways :)
Yet another case of a woman / person overthinking and questioning a persons kind gestures!!!!
Why does anyone do anything kind or for another person??? Should they stop since we could all do things for ourselves? @_@So silence yourself, just enjoy it, and give as much back to him in return in whatever sweet things you do for him.People just can't seem to appreciate things anymore. -_-wow, i don't know if i can even start to correct all the errors here.
"We see it in movies all the time; girls are always falling for the knight in shining armor, the guy who goes out of his way to be a gentleman. And things like this do translate into real life-- men are praised for being "that guy" from the romance film. "
no; they aren't. in fact guys are often lambasted in real life for doing the kinds of things that those guys do.. UNLESS, they have the money, looks, social standing to make their advances tolerable. women fetishize this behavior, and only accept it as a good thing when it is from the right person instead of looking at the character of someone who is genuinely trying to be kind.
"Yes, this seems extreme, and chances are that men don't think women are incapable of opening the door themselves, but some men might, deep down, think women don't deserve equal workplace rights, and maybe little gender roles like this one are a part of the overall problem."
common courtesy equates to men believing that women don't deserve equal workplace rights? i've been at my current job for a little over a year; in that time one male has been promoted into management while several females have. most of them were incompetent at the jobs they were promoted from and are equally incompetent and lazy and unhelpful as managers. meanwhile, even though i sit with newhires during their training period and have them requesting repeatedly to be able to sit with me because i'm "the only one that teaches them anything" i can't get a leg up. my point? "equal workplace rights" are not a problem, utter strawman.
"Little things add up, and in a time when potential leaders of our country think it's okay for men to make oppressive decisions about women, maybe it's time that something changes in the culture of our society. To borrow a metaphor from feminist Marilyn Frye (see picture above), think of it as a bird cage with many wires keeping the bird inside. If you look at just one wire, i.e. men going out of their way to hold open doors for women, your focus is too specific and you will fail not only to see the issue with that one wire, but also with the greater problem at hand. Frye then explains that it is not until you step back and look at the whole cage, with all of the wires culminating, that you realize how trapped the bird (or woman) is. "
and here we find not only more of the lunacy of the problem but the root of it. you're listening to crackpot feminists who think that common courtesy and simple acts of kindness are but smaller pieces of a more sinister ploy to control and dominate women.. seriously, get a clue, then get a life, then appreciate the fact that you have someone who gives a damn about you because a lot of people don't even have that much.
but don't worry, if i ever see you walking down the street and we are headed into the same building, i'll be sure to slam the door in your face, just so you can rest assured that i see you as an equal.
@secretbeerreporter@xanga - I agree it's a ridiculous, outdated idea. I don't want to go back to the 1950s so why hang on to a relic like that?
I don't consider opening a door for myself a "price" of equality. I am perfectly capable of doing it and of holding it open for somebody else. I find it patronizing when people suggest we need that done for us.
And having to "beg" for equality suggests a bigger issue than who is holding a door open.
if he offers his jacket, you offer to hold his hand to keep him warm, too
if he offers to open the door, perk your ass a little higher for him to check out as you walk by
if he offers to carry your bag, offer to hold his wallet. then write your number and hide it inside of his wallet, but take his i.d., so he'll call you if he wants his i.d. back
this applies to hot guys.
for the rest of the platonic people, if it is convenient and they happen to be walking closely behind me, then I'll hold the door open. I wear a size 3, so if a guy can fit into my jacket, I likely won't be attracted to him. it'll be funny if a fat guy took my jacket if I offered it to him and tried to wear it. this is too funny. I'm picturing kung fu panda's Po wearing my mini jacket:D I crack myself up. I can't continue this comment...lol
I can open my own door, I can pull out my own seat, and I can carry my own things, but it's nice when someone I'm dating does it for me. Sometimes I forget my jacket and the guy I'm dating will offer me theirs. I'm perfectly capable of doing all those things, and I don't expect them to do it for me especially because I'm a female, but I was raised that guys should respect females. I mean, maybe I was raised wrong because I was taught those things were to be nice, not to force some form of inequality. I've also opened doors for other people (including boyfriends), I've carried other peoples things, and I've offered my jacket to my friends. It's not because I think they're like inferior to me, it's because I was raised to be nice to people. I would not date a guy who would never hold a door open for me or who wouldn't offer me his jacket. It's not about inequality, it's about showing that you notice the other person. They are just simple acts of kindness. If I'm setting my gender back by appreciating these gestures, I don't really care.
Why can't people just do nice things? Holding a door open for someone is being nice, it's got nothing to do with gender or whether the other person is "capable" or not. The same goes for offering to help someone carry a heavy object or helping an elderly person cross the road - it's nothing to do with gender, it's called being a decent human being.