Thursday, 19 July 2012
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Using Sex As Bribery
In Dan Savage's sex advice column, Savage Love, a woman asks about the questionable morality surrounding bribing her husband to lose weight with sex. She writes:
“My husband and I have been together for three years and we’re not having as much sex as we used to. A big part of the problem: In the time we’ve been together, he’s put on a lot of weight. I’m not looking to blame his weight gain for my libido issues. I just need to shut up and put out more, and I’m working on that. But I’m wondering if it’s ethical to suggest incentivizing his weight loss with more sex. Sex every time he drops three pounds followed by sex once a week once he hits his target weight? I don’t think losing the beer belly will make me want to drop my pants all the time, but it couldn’t hurt, right?"-Like Boys Slimmer
Dan's Response: "If you think your husband would respond positively to the challenge—if he’s not weepily sensitive about his weight, if he likes set goals and specific rewards—then I think you should toss this proposal on the table right next to that bag of Doritos. Of course, I couldn’t give you the same advice if the genders were reversed because… well, it looks like we’re out of room. So we’ll have to leave the gendered politics of fat for a future column."
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HOLD THE iPHONE! “I just need to shut up and put out more, and I’m working on that.” EXCUSE ME?! No. No, no, no, no, NO. I’m 100% for this woman motivating her husband to drop some excess poundage. And I don’t think that her proposal is unethical, exactly — unless you consider self-degradation unethical. How about choosing an incentive that doesn’t involve violating your own body by countering its impulses and using it as currency? Why is Dan Savage condoning this? Carefully calculated, scheduled sex that you clearly DON’T want to have should NOT be on the table. NOT right next to that bag of Doritos. Not EVER. Period. Option: not viable.
I typically don’t have such black-and-white, cut-and-dry opinions, but when it comes to sex, I believe that a woman should never have it unless her body ACTUALLY craves it. I’ve done it before. I think that most women have done it at some point or another. Maybe because they were in uncomfortable situations, but didn’t want to appear ‘prude.’ Maybe because they wanted to ‘please’ or ‘keep’ their men — preserve waning, sinking, crumbling relationships that had probably run their fated courses.
Maybe because allowing it to happen simply seemed easier than saying no. Or maybe, like Like Boys Slimmer, because they wanted or expected something in exchange. Now, what Like Boys Slimmer wants is a slimmer husband and therefore, an improved sex life. I understand that. But if this woman is looking to ignite her marriage, she’s going about it in a completely backwards way. I can’t see how repeatedly having sex when she doesn't want to will EVER stoke her sacred, feminine fire. And isn't that what she's ultimately aiming for in the first place?I speak from experience when I say that having sex when I didn’t want to brought up feelings of intense shame, alienation, self-betrayal, and disembodiment. I can’t speak on behalf of anyone other than myself. I’m sure these feelings don’t come up for every woman every time she has sex against her visceral will, but I’d bet some serious cash that on some deep, cellular level, it shakes her. On some level, it leaves her feeling at least a little empty, like a ghost of herself, like something has been taken out of her.
Aside from being personally damaging… every time a woman does this to herself, it enforces the notion that women are sexual objects, not sexual subjects — that our vaginas are numb cavities designed exclusively for two purposes: 1) Childbirth and 2) Men’s sexual pleasure. And anyone I’d *EVER* want *ANYTHING* to do with in this life knows that that’s six tons of stale, crusty horse-shit.
“I’m not looking to blame his weight gain for my libido issues.” No, of course you’re not looking to blame him. When you say things like, “my libido issues,” it’s obvious that you blame yourself. “I don’t think losing the beer belly will make me want to drop my pants all the time, but it couldn’t hurt, right?” WRONG. While losing his beer belly certainly couldn’t hurt him, I can’t see how enticing him to lose his beer belly by regarding your vagina as a vacuum won’t inevitably hurt you, ladybird.
What do you think of this woman's proposal?
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About the Author
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- From: Jeanette
- Name: Jeanette
- Location: Long Island, New York, United States
- About Me: I'm fascinated by human behavior! How we -- as human beings and members of this society -- relate to one another in sex and love is particularly interesting to me.
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Comments (48)
"I believe that a woman shouldneverhave it unless her body ACTUALLY craves it."
Wrong answer. A woman should never have sex unless her MIND actually craves it. It is possible to be aroused against your will.
As for the woman's proposal... I find it ethically questionable. However, it's not any more different in my view than a guy bribing a woman with a fancy diamond in order to get exclusive access to her sex organs for a long period of time. In your example, it's a woman making herself into a sex object; in my example, the guy is degrading himself by turning into a beast of labor, demonstrating his ability to acquire resources to obtain an item that could be used for other, more useful things than engagement rings (machine tools and drill bits come to mind).
Whether it's ethical for a woman to use sex as a form of bribery is up to her own discretion. She admits to herself that she wants to work on putting out more. That's her choice. It's not like her husband is making her do it; she came up with the plan herself.
But, when you think about it, there are some women who ostracize men (and women) who merely look at them as objects (for sex). But then you also have a percentage of those women who would also bribe a man (or woman) with sex to obtain something (whether material or intangible). So, really, it's about the woman's own set of ethics that you need to wonder about. But, if a woman is comfortable with using sex as a motivator for her partner, then why not let her? Just because YOU don't crave sex at a certain time doesn't mean her or any other woman won't either.
weither it's ethical or not.
It might actually result in him resenting her.
Women and men both like sex, she wouldn't like it if the roles were reversed. She should reward him with something else for weight loss and talk to her husband about it in a honest but not abrasive manner.
picture with the post = HILARIOUS.
I'm certainly not comfortable with the sex-as-behavioral-reinforcement strategy. It's too mechanical, too detached. It's the way you treat a robot or at best a lab animal, not the way you interact with another human being. And if you really want to encourage and reinforce his weight loss, there are plenty of ways to do that without making this strict pounds-for-sex rule.
But I also think your standard that sex must always involve enthusiastic desire is too strong. Sometimes you're not completely in the mood, but your partner really needs it, and you give in for their sake. And some other time, you'll really need it, and they'll not be completely in the mood, and they'll give in. Why? Because it's a relationship---it's give-and-take, that's how it works.
Imagine a friend who never goes out with your unless they are
absolutely completely excitedabout it. They'll never explore anything new, never go out when they're feeling blue, never comfort you because you're lonely. No, only when they are
guaranteed to have maximal fun.Doesn't sound like much of a friend now does it?
That's the kind of sexual relationship you're proposing.
Now obviously there's a minimum threshold beyond which you wouldn't consent at all. If it's really going to make you feel ashamed and alienated, don't do it. I'm not saying your partner is allowed to rape you or anything like that. But yeah, sometimes you are only 40% in the mood, and you have to work at it a little to get yourself excited about it. Sometimes you're stressed out or tired and you'd really rather do something else... but your partner needs it and you are there for them.
I don't think the woman ever said she didn't want to have sex with her husband. She never specified what her libido issues were; just that she was working on them. Obviously she wants to have sex with her husband or she wouldn't be asking for advice. For me, the thing that stands out about Dan Savage's response is this, "Of course, I couldn’t give you the same advice if the genders were
reversed because… well, it looks like we’re out of room. So we’ll have
to leave the gendered politics of fat for a future column." She asked if it was wrong for her to feel this way or propose it to her husband. To me his point was that everyone (especially women) would freak out if a man were to ask this question about his wife and think that it was OK. Of course it is not OK. It is equally insensitive for a woman to tell her husband that he should loose weight to get more sex as it as for a man to do the same thing. I can see this in his response and I have my own issues with sex that I need to work on. I hate my husband's body, but I would never even think to bribe my husband in this way because it won't fix my hang ups about sex. My husband could have the perfect body and my issues would still be there. Perhaps Mr. Savage could have just told the woman that she needs to work on communicating with her husband to see if they can work through her issues together, but since Dan Savage is not Oprah or Dr. Phil, she got what she got.
I don't think sex should ever be used as a tool or a means to get what you want from someone.
It is as ethical for a man to bribe a woman with sex, I don't see the problem.
@QuantumStorm@xanga - I would rather have the Buster Sword from FFVII made out of titanium, personally. Though I suspect that it would cost me far more than the average diamond engagement ring to create one.
@Nous_Apeiron@xanga - Well it depends on if you have the time and resources to invest in your own machine shop. I've always thought about doing something like having a machine shop when I get my own place.
@QuantumStorm@xanga - Luckily, there's a small town machine shop not too far from here and they might just let me use some of their equipment if I ask nicely. Getting that much titanium would actually be the hard part for me.
@Nous_Apeiron@xanga - Yeah that is the kicker, isn't it? Raw materials dictate everything else. I wonder if the first task of my machine shop shouldn't be to make one of those drilling vehicles from the movie "Armageddon" so I can search for raw ores and materials myself...
You can't train people the same way you train a dog. You don't dangle 'treats' in front of them as incentive for good behavior.
She can discuss her husbands weight with him. She can even tell him that she would be a lot more sexually attracted to him if he lost some weight...but using sex to bribe him to lose weight is probably not the best idea.
Then again, every couple makes their own rules about what works/what doesn't in their own relationship...maybe that's the kind of motivation her husband needs. You never what what someone will respond best to.
is it just me or is the OP in her profile pic striking the same pose as the illustration pic for the post?
@iones_island@xanga - LOLL john :P
the part you bolded is so true, it's a feeling of such disgust that I can't function for days or weeks afterat least, not inwardly. outwardly i look ok ha
@Victoriamisu@xanga - there's a solution for that; just respect your body and demand the same from men... no, not demand, command; in other words enforce said respect with your actions so forcefully that giving respect is a given. i say this only because if you didn't feel disrespected by them and/or yourself im not sure why there would be disgust.
On an ethical level, I believe the idea is very questionable... and I'm a dude.
On the otherhand, the proposal of women withholding intercourse is one of the major reasons why I have absolutely no interest in real women on a romantic level. It's just easier to do by oneself than adopt a masochistic relationship with a woman who doesn't even want sex.
@iones_island@xanga - isn't there always the possibility that it was forced?
of course everyone demands and commands htat typeof respect (most, at least). then the possibility of forced sex remains
@Victoriamisu@xanga - fewer and fewer people demand that kind of respect these days. rape is a completely different thing than just unwanted sex. and the wording you used doesn't even hint at that,
"it's a feeling of such disgust that I can't function for days or weeks after at least, not inwardly. outwardly i look ok ha"
this implies a current, ongoing situation and the way you play it off with "laughter" at the end there makes it seem that you either don't take it that seriously or (and i'm more likely to believe) that you are covering it from even yourself.
you know how i feel about rape, and if you don't then you don't know me at all. if that has happened or is happening to you i would implore you to do something about it and get some help; and i don't mean counselling i mean real practical help like having the offender put away. it doesn't matter who it is, no one deserves to get away with that.
you are aware that i lost someone very very dear to me that way. do you really think that i would be cavalier about such a thing? especially toward someone I care about?
I was watching the bachelorette, and she got mad at the guy for being honest that he doesn't want her to gain weight after marriage and she got all offended and they put him on blast on the reunion show regarding his fat comment, which I thought was hypocritical of her, because a majority of the guys that she chose had muscles/toned bodies. he should've asked her if she would mind if he gained weight, but he didn't. she is clearly attracted to toned bodies, and didn't pick the chubby guys. if he did ask her, she'd probably say something sugarcoated that she wouldn't care if he gained weight, so I think they should tell all the hot toned guys to go home and bring in a set of chubby or obese guys for her to choose instead, so she can makeout with the chubby bachelors and love them regardless of appearances, but who is she kidding. then she eliminated doug, the cutest one of them all, who apparently moved too slow and didn't go for the kiss, but she liked the aerie guy, who she kept making out with, and he was the final two
that was a rant:D I was watching because doug is cute. beady eyes are so adorable._.
if I was reaching menopause or too old to care about sex due to my arthritis, cholesterol and heart issues, then I wouldn't care if my s.o. got fat. while I'm still young or we're both young, I'd highly prefer if we were still sexually attractive to each other. it doesn't mean that I'll want to have sex every single time that he requests or vice versa. I had a crush on a guy at work and he has the sexiest smile, but today, I saw him closer while he was seated, and he had a potbelly, which I didn't notice before when he was standing up. well my previous lust for him has gone, but it was superifical to begin with anyway. good thing I have multiple crushes, so minus one isn't a problem
gaining a drastic amount of weight might have underlying issues, depression maybe, or other reasons, so if he resolves that, then he might feel better and then be motivated to lose weight for himself. when I was watching the extreme makeover weight loss edition, the guy said that he was finally doing something for himself and that's how it should be. it depends on the person. my guy said that he wants to workout more and look good, for himself and for me. he used to be fat, and that was due to his depression, but later he got himself into shape. I complimented him on how sexy he looks in a particular shirt and it just fed his ego and he keeps wearing the same shirt and he looks hotter every time that I see him. I think his fat to fit is inspiring. I don't use sex as a bribe. I stroke his ego with sexified words
now I always want to see him naked and specifically want to see his stick shift, but I think it is different for guys, because he he loves how I desire and objectify him
he knows how to stroke my ego, too, so it is a team effort. different things work for different people. but yeah, don't do anything that you don't feel comfortable with and don't sell yourself out.
I was totally thinking sex is bribery is bad and then I saw it was a motivation to lose weight... hahaha
@iones_island@xanga - BWAHAHAHAHA
@wolvenchic@xanga - That's an interesting point.
@QuantumStorm@xanga - And can I mount a railgun on it? Please?