Saturday, 14 July 2012
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The Ethics of Pick-Up Artists?
Have you heard of PUA? It's something relatively new to me, honestly. It refers to Pick-Up Artistry. And apparently it goes past the basic pick up lines. I recently stumbled upon a forum filled with advice to men from other men, on exactly how they should play the game.
Basic stuff from opening all the way to closing. Then onto the advice; for shy guys or for guys at the gym, guys on the net even ways to improve your own confidence. And of course the slightly offensive... sharing stories of the "closing" what worked and didn't work overall in getting laid.
Honestly I'm not sure how I feel about this, what do you think?Source: http://www.pick-up-artist-forum.com/
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- From: Xificurc@xanga
- Name: Mel
- About Me: <3. Peace.
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Comments (51)
you are a girl. and, as a girl in our society, you don't know and will never understand the hoops through which you make guys jump in order to capture a girl's attention (and heart). we would LOVE to be able to walk up to a girl and say "hey, i think you're cute, let's go get coffee sometime." but unfortunately, such a tactic will have a low success rate in the real world.
i think what you would be surprised to learn is that most of the people on those forums are guys who have had failure after failure and want to improve their awkwardness and/or inexperience with women. the idea isn't to manipulate anyone or be insincere or anything of the sort. all these guys want, just like everyone else, is to be successful in their love lives. if they have to start with a script that is proven to get a girl's attention, then so be it. you have to crawl before you walk.
"if they have to start with a script that is proven to get a girl's attention, then so be it"
"A" girl's attention is the key word. If it's to impress a special girl they're really into, I think the girl should find it's very romantic, that is, for a guy take it upon himself to improve for someone else. If it's to brush up on their ability to get laid in general, by anyone who might take the bait, I think it's terrible.
@T3hZ10n@xanga - you're the complete opposite of him, yet your screen name and pic sounds/looks evil, and his looks unsuspecting and implies that he's "godly" and gorgeous like biggie smalls, which he said it himself that he isn't attractive. what trickery. I read your comments and have a sigh of relief
team zion!
It's as ethical as photoshopping images, learning how to look cute in a dress, or wearing the right kind of makeup. In the end it's about presentation. If the person using PUA techniques is morally upright, then he/she will likely use it to reduce social awkwardness with the opposite gender to make it easier to forge relationships. If the person is a sleazebag, then PUA will make it easier for them to achieve their goals. It's a set of techniques, nothing more.
@QuantumStorm@xanga - This.
Let's face it - anyone trying to pick anyone up is going to try to come off a certain way. This way is not always representative of them in different circumstances or in general. All PUA does is formalize these techniques.
People can still say no (to sex, to a date, etc). Choice isn't removed from the situation. PUA just changes how we view the options.
A friend of mine was trying to explain to me PUA technique, basically the differences in a fast pace type settings like the club, vs slow pace setting like the coffee shop, and also, confront a girl when she's alone vs when she's within a group of friend (especially with other guys in the group).
Failure or success, before even "playing the game," there's that initial pause a guy would have before confronting a girl that can essentially psych himself out of confronting her and therefore he never plays the game, 100% failure. PUA delves into the sociology/psychology of people that is in work as a guy attempts to pick up a girl. Understanding PUA in this sociological/psychological way I would feel is enough as the guy can then mold his only style, and do what's comfortable for him to break through that initial hesitant pause (good or bad guy)
it is marketing and another way to sell yourself or a product. PUA are like those annoying salespeople at the mall, who try to grab your hand and rub lotion all over it and tell you that your hairyass farmer tan arms are more beautiful and shiny due this extraordinary product that has adorned your sexy follicles
need not worry about your hairy arms because they make you look more real and authentic as you are clearly directly related to the caveman, who doesn't own a razor, but today is your lucky day! I'll throw in an absolutely free state of the art razor and an extra free smartphone(with a mandatory 5 year subscription service) if you buy this lovely lotion
sweetie, you know you want some of this and more of this
if they hate "games" and just want to get laid, then pay for a hooker and get it over with. otherwise, they wish that the person would be easily controlled and listen to their every desire. if they want to date or have a serious s.o., then it is called courtship, not "games." the person gets to know you and then decides if they want more, and can refuse to continue to choose someone else, or stay single, so we have options. however, some of these PUA creep me out and are desperate due to not having many if any options, but I don't believe that even the uglies don't have options, because I've seen ugly couples, so the ugly people or whoever complaining, who can't get girls or guys, is because even ugly people are superficial and want the hotties. if the person easily gives in, then he/she also wanted to get laid, so don't go after the stuckup ones, who aren't interested but some of them do and complain that the person is too difficult or a prude, but that's because he/she doesn't want to get laid with you. just be more blunt and get it over with, "want to have sex?" so she'll either slap you or go sleep with you. then you can easily weed out the ones that don't want to have sex with you and the ones that do
you have to sacrifice your cheeks to get laid sometimes
There isn't anything unethical about PUA, just the possible intent it will be used for. If your intent is to trick some girl into falling head over heals for you, fuck her, then split, that is kinda shady and manipulative. On the other hand, girls should be on the defense for that crap and not sleep with a dude the night she meets him expecting a relationship. I have no issue with PUA, especially if it is helping awkward, but otherwise great guys approach a girl and keep her attention long enough for her to realize "hey, he's a great guy!". Just manipulative douche bags.
It is no different than women asking advice for the same thing
A lot of it is bullshit. You don't need "technique". You don't need to play dress up or find some pick up lines or project an "aura of confidence". You just need to have the balls to ask a girl out and the ability to harden yourself to rejection. The more girls you ask, the better the likelihood you have of finding someone who will fuck you. Most people don't actually TRY just asking around and letting every rejection slip off your chest as if it were nothing. But if you did, you wouldn't actually need to read any PUA bullshit.
But no... I don't find it unethical in and of itself. Quantum nailed it.
Pick up is whatever you make of it. It is like anything else in life. There are (m)PUAs who do pick up because it is their hobby/job to pick apart the female mind. There are (r)AFCs or PUAs who just want to give themselves an edge, to make up for experience and skills they never had. There are those who just want to fuck girls for whatever reason, revenge, validation, degradation, etc. It's the entire gamut.
One cannot make an attack on PUA and call it unethical or whatever. It depends on who is using it and for what purpose. It's in the same way that you can't judge the killing of another person by that action alone. If it was in self-defense, it is (somewhat?) justified. If it was for some other reason like revenge, then it is not. I only make this analogy because I'm showing the difference between judging an action and judging an action in the context of its intent.
Sounds like a forum full of assholes!
@TheNotoriousGOD@xanga - Dude, if you know a girl well enough and she feels you know her well enough and she likes you, saying, "I think you're cute, let's have coffee", is all you need to say! Anything more than that and the girl will start to feel like a stuffed bear you win at the county fair.
@TiredSoVeryTired@xanga - Sometimes it's not about girls you know well enough (that sometimes means you're friend-zoned anyways). Sometimes it's about the girl you just saw less than 3 seconds ago at the bar or club. You need more artillery than just "I think you're cute." Any guy can do that. You need something different.
"Adverse selection" suggests that those who have more to lose will be more likely to purchase insurance... but those who purchase insurance tend to be those who are smart when it comes to calculating risks and minimizing losses, therefore those who are most likely to buy insurance are, for all intents and purposes, those who need it the least.
If sexual selection followed the same principle, statistically, the more time a guy invests in studying PUA, the easier it becomes for them to get laid by easier women...
Unfortunately, sexual selection involves EONS more complex mathematics to effectively predict. It is nowhere near as fair and balanced as natural selection (though it is based on it), and adverse selection is taking place at alarming rates in opposite directions.
See @P0RCELA1N_D0LL@xanga's comment for a perfect example of this phenomenon, or for a more humorous look at the exact opposite of what is happening in the real world: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmx4twCK3_I
Deceptive appearances are deceptively effective.
@oMeGaXmK2@xanga - Some girls don't want to be picked up by guys that they don't know well. It's fun to go out to a club and bar, but that doesn't mean you want to be picked up by a stranger.
@TiredSoVeryTired@xanga - That is true, not all girls go out expecting to be picked up. However, we were not discussing the girls who are being approached. We were talking about the guys who are approaching and what variables are working either with or against them.
Let me change the topic a bit, just purely out of my own curiosity, just curious discussion. For a girl, what is fun about going out to a club or bar (assuming that there's no expectation of being picked up)?
@oMeGaXmK2@xanga - What's fun about a club/bar? All kinds of stuff... dancing, drinking, talking, shooting pool. Hell, I've been to more bars with my dad and sisters than I have been with my friends.
As far as I know the term pick up artist refers to a man who uses "skill" to have sex with strangers. Nothing more, to me that is basically an asshole to begin with. So, would be the case with women wanting the same thing. People are not objects to be used.
I think it's really sweet if someone likes you enough that they're worried about embarrassing themselves or saying the wrong thing or whatever. I mean, the pick up line nowadays is more like, "Hey, let's chill." to the point where sometimes I'm not sure if I'm on a date or "just chillin'". For once I would like a direct affirmation that someone likes me, even if it's through a semi-corny or unoriginal pick-up line. Still sweet.
I'm honest and tell them what I want. I usually say stuff like, "Let's just have sex and see how it goes". I mean, I don't want them to love me like that. It's annoying and such a turn off. We only like each other cause we wanna do each other. Let's just get to the point and have fun, ya know.
It's our own fault for making more of it than it is. We should expect to be hurt when we lie, especially to ourselves.
Let me just tell you my experience from studying from pick-up artists...
I grew up from Kindergarten all the way until grad school being the awkward guy who was mainly introverted. I didn't like going out to social functions, let alone bars & clubs. Worse yet, I would get stuck an affixed on one girl per year that just lead to depression, frustration, and a waste of time every time it happened. Before this year, I would go on 0-1 dates per year (with the exception of last year, where I went on three) and the idea of even setting foot into a night club was beyond me. I was the 'nice guy' who was always seeking approval and worrying about offending women I interacted with.
Do you think that's how I wanted to live my life? HELL NO!
It's only July, and I've been on 16 dates with 16 different women so far this year, some of which most guys would kill to date. I visit clubs in my city regularly as well as latin dance socials and I dance with the hottest women in the room. While there is still plenty of room for improvement (i.e. I still get nervous especially on coffee dates), I've come a LONG way just this year alone, and the only direction I can go is forward.
@Chibi_Son_Gokou@xanga - Perhaps the reason is because you are no longer focusing on just one woman? Good luck!
@TiredSoVeryTired@xanga - Why put all your eggs in one basket? because it will only do one thing, sink or swim.
@TiredSoVeryTired@xanga - Yes they are. I am. You are. We all are objects to be used. and you know what society calls people who have no use? bums.@QuantumStorm@xanga - @TheNotoriousGOD@xanga - @AmorVomnia7@xanga - <The rationalists of xanga.@SlackerSociety@xanga - Uh, I'm a person not an egg, so I can swim!
You do what you want. I'm a person and will not be used as an object, you may be objectified all you want, so long as you have a nice ass body.