It's a long story, so I don't quite know where to start....
When I first started dating my boyfriend, he told me that he had some credit card debts.... It was a significant amount--one that needed to be cleared before we could continue with our lives. I told him that he could only propose after he had paid off all his debts, not only for motivation but for him to show that he really wanted to be with me. At that time, he told me that it would take a maximum of two years to pay off.
A few months later, I moved overseas, and him being him, followed me here. We lived quite frugally as we were both on a low salary and he needed to use most of his salary to pay for the debts.
He required a credit card for his job as it required a lot of expenses. I agreed, but asked him to promise not to occur any further debts; spend money on what you cannot afford and nothing more, it was so simple. He knows how much I hate that he has a debt, but that was the past and this is now.
And so it continued, we lived overseas for nine months. Then, I decided that I should go back home to finish studying my Masters, which would take a year, we had a LDR, and survived.
Now I've recently moved back, and I asked him the same question, "how long until you pay everything off?" His answer was the same "two years." Two years ago, you said two years and now two years later you say two years again? I asked him to work everything out and indeed, this time it would take two years to pay off. I am quite happy with that amount of time as we still have our careers to pursue.
Then during Easter, he went to Japan for an important family event. He assured me that he could afford it.
Recently, I asked him randomly, have you been paying off your credit card? His answer, was a resounding "no." The personal expenses in Japan could not be paid for. Not only did he have personal expenses, but he had spent a large amount of money on "something" that he could not tell me.
I have a fair idea that this "something" is an engagement ring. We have been together for a little over two years. He knows that incurring a debt, for me, is worse than cheating.
I just can't get over the fact that he risked our relationship over an engagement ring. Why couldn't he wait another two years?
What would you do in a situation like this? You ask a person to make one promise; and he/she breaks it.(
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Comments (22)
A promise is guarantee that something either will or will not happen. It is just words. Granted words are powerful and have meaning behind them but only when backed up by action. You set an expectation for him to change based upon his words, not his previous actions. I understand that you are hurt, but you have known him long enough to expect certain things from him. Suddenly changing his ways and becoming something he's not isn't a typical thing for anyone to do. If he came with the debt, then it shows he has a pattern of spending beyond his means. If he maintained the debt throughout your entire relationship he then showed no indications that behavior would change. People are creatures of habit. Japan and the ring just fall in line with his past decisions. I understand that this is a very clinical observation of your situation, and I do know what it's like to hold the receipt to a broken promise. But, if you actually were surprised to find out that he has stopped addressing his debt then you didn't get to know the guy that well. If you find that his debt is on par with cheating, then what I would do in this situation seems obvious. If I set a standard for myself to live by that's one thing. But, I can't expect that others will live up to that standard even if they promise that they will. A relationship isn't about money or rings. It's about happiness. If you're not happy then simply leave the relationship. Find someone who already holds themselves to the same standards you find important in life. I wish you the best of luck with what ever choice you make. Just remember, this is YOUR choice for your life. As far as I know we only get one. Live it well!
i've always believed that if they aren't honest about one thing, they probably won't be honest about something else.
Tell him you won't marry him until he clears his debt. I wouldn't marry anyone who is in any kind of debt...
there is "responsible" debt and "irresponsible" debt. what your homeboy is doing is, in my opinion, definitely financially irresponsible.
@vicdaily@xanga - student loans, however, i consider responsible debt (as long as you didn't study a bullshit subject and you did well in what you studied). for example, i have 70k in loans (90 originally) but i make more than enough money to pay it off every month and still live what many consider an extravagant lifestyle. so do you still consider that a dealbreaker?
"If you're not happy then simply leave the relationship."
In all my 23 years of existence I have never seen a human be consistently happy for more than a few hours at a time.
I think it's nunya damn business what he does with his money.
@TheNotoriousGOD@xanga - Yeah... in much the same way investing is "responsible" but casino blackjack is "irresponsible". Can you tell me what happened in 1929?
It's funny, because there's a total of only 52 playing cards and a limited number of possible combinations to consider with a deck of cards, and yet THAT is still gambling...
No matter what you call risk, what matters is whether it is realized and whether it is calculated.
Relationships are not about investing.
@OP - If you couldn't, weren't able to, or didn't predict that he would be irresponsible with his money, then you should probably stop gambling, shouldn't you?
@T3hZ10n@xanga - ooh, this will be fun.
okay, so ignoring the fact that i never made any reference anywhere to investing:
a) blackjack is irresponsible because, as n approaches infinity, you are guaranteed to lose your money by the strong law of large numbers. if this wasn't the case, casinos would not have this game (this is true of ALL casino games).
b) 1929, 1987, 2008, and every other stock market dip is going to happen because the set of all possible realizations of return is over the whole real line. (okay, technically it's stopped at -30% because the circuit breaker will pop in.) the reason (equity) investing is generally considered wise is that, in the long run, it has empirically been shown to realize returns that are significantly larger than those provided by fixed income investing. to reiterate my above point, blackjack is guaranteed to make you lose your money in the long run with probability 1 (unless you are the casino, i suppose).
c) i definitely agree that risk should be calculated. and this is why common sense dictates that you have well-diversified portfolio of investments--because it diversifies risk. whoda thunk. however, the lower risk you have, the lower returns you're going to get. so in order to have higher potential returns, you have to take on more risk. if you take on 0 risk, you're leaving your money in the bank.
these are basic principles of financial math and probability. i was a quant on wall street. this is not an argument you will win.
as for this being the op's business: it is absolutely her business to know her husband's finances, what the hell are you smoking?? she is quite prudent by putting so much thought into this. why do you say she's gambling?
op: to be clear about my earlier comment. i would not marry this guy. to do so would be asking for a world of financial hurt. when you get married, you inherit that individual's finances as well, and you would fuck yourself over quite horribly.
If he asks you to marry him while he's still in debt, then say NO. He needs to grow up and take care of his debts before he marries you. I would be pretty stuck if I was in your position. Promises are a very big deal to me and I would be extremely hurt. His debt definitely needs to go before you guys get married. Maybe you need to threaten to leave him? He's obviously not taking his debt seriously. By the way, his fancial status is definitely your business! Don't let anyone tell you different. You have a right to feel the way you do.
@TheNotoriousGOD@xanga - "to reiterate my above point, blackjack is guaranteed to make you lose your money in the long run with probability 1 (unless you are the casino, i suppose)."
No... it's not. It's guaranteed to make those who play WITHOUT A SYSTEM lose money.
http://www.blackjackinfo.com/cardcounting.php
Strategy is to a casino as adopting external standards is to a relationship. It's an attempt to gain an advantage for oneself.
Love is supposed to be a safe haven from competition.
"as for this being the op's business: it is absolutely her business to know her husband's finances, what the hell are you smoking??"
Winstons. And no... it's not. If it was, she'd be asking him and discussing it with him.
"she is quite prudent by putting so much thought into this. why do you say she's gambling?"
I have always been of the opinion that if you have to ask someone, then you don't know the answer to what it is you are asking. He is a face-down card. No matter what the player sitting next to her tells her, it's not going to change the face-down card.
"these are basic principles of financial math and probability. i was a quant on wall street. this is not an argument you will win."
And...?
@TheNotoriousGOD@xanga - I think if I'm going to marry someone, he needs to let me pay off his loans entirely as soon as our finances are combined. I don't want ANY debt because I'm starting off with none. He's free to use my income to help himself out as long as he gets out of debt. I just don't want debt in my life, period. Once I'm married to someone his debt becomes my debt and I shouldn't have to feel burdened by it. Alternatively, we'll have separate bank accounts until he gets his act together.
@TheNotoriousGOD@xanga - Wait... oh shit. You were right about one thing.
"as for this being the op's business: it is absolutely her business to know her husband's finances, what the hell are you smoking??"
I don't recall her mentioning she had one... my mistake
"op: to be clear about my earlier comment. i would not marry this guy. to do so would be asking for a world of financial hurt."
You'd marry a dude?
@T3hZ10n@xanga - you know, i was going to bring up the card-counting thing, but i decided that this was an obviously dumb exception. if you do that, you are no longer gambling because your probability of winning is greater than 50%, which means by the aforementioned strong law of large numbers, you will win in the long run with probability 1, which means you have no variance, which means you have no risk, and therefore are no longer gambling.
as for the rest of your comment, you clearly have nothing else intelligent to say, so i'm done with this.
@vicdaily@xanga - but what if it's a very large amount of debt? my aunt married someone with hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt (from med school), and there was no way in hell she could pay that off, even if she wanted. but once he was finished with residency/fellowship etc, he started pulling 500k a year. to the best of my knowledge, even 5 years ago they were still in debt (and may still be too, idk) but she can't reasonably wait 10 years AFTER med school (i assume he was in his early 30s) for him to pay off his loans. even my loans, if i make minimum payments, won't be finished till i'm at least 33. so am i unfit for marriage despite my income?
don't get me wrong, i agree that having debt fucking sucks, and i would be wary of marrying a girl with a significant amount of debt too (though for different reasons)...just wondering where you draw the line is all :)
@TheNotoriousGOD@xanga -
Credit card debt is one of the worst debt you can have. Best way to get out of it is to make big payments and paydown the debt aggressively. Unlike a student loan, a big credit card debt will wreck your credit score and will make buying a home later on a nightmare. I wish you luck but your SO really needs to get his financial act together. Might I suggest he try having a budget plan for monthly spending using a Mint.com. Great iphone app and website for the financially disciplined, I use it track my retirement funds, savings, investments, checking account and spending.
I agree about being out of debt thing before you make any life changing decisions with someone else.
That's why I'm totally fine right now not being in a relationship with anyone because it would just be more money I'd spend on them and less money to pay off my debts.
When I'm with someone, I just want to focus on the usual expenses: rent, utilities, going out, etc., nothing else.
Same goes for the person I want to be with they better not be in any debt.
I finally paid off a few of my credit card debts with help from family of course, and they were huge...it feels great just owing them and no huge amount of interests.
Went off on a rant here, as for your situation, definitely stand your ground, it would be the best interest for both of you.
That habit isn't something that will just go away. He'll always be a deadbeat and his debts will end up damaging your credit if you marry and make the mistake of having a joint account. Even if you divorce, his debts will stay with you.
Many marriages end in divorce over financial reasons. That is the number one cause of divorces. Financial Irresponsibility is very damaging. He should take care of his debts before marrying you. If you marry him, all his debt will be linked to you even though he had them before you got married.
You don't want to be a part of that.
One of the main reasons I wouldn't marry my ex was because he has a lot of debt to pay off. The IRS even started garnishing his wages. I was NOT going to be a part of that.
I suggest be engaged until he can pay off his debt. But I believe he will keep telling you, I will pay it off, I will pay it off........ never ending cycle...
That is a sign of immaturity. Consider this scenario:
Let's say you bought a house in both your names. He has trouble making the payments and it all falls on you. And if you are both struggling, you get behind on payments and damage both your credits. Protect your credit, you do not want to damage it. Without credit, you are nobody. No one will consider you for any new car loans, any new lines of credit... a low credit score can even make it hard to rent an apartment.
Good Luck!
@nonurbusinessyo@xanga - I will check out MINT.COM
maybe be in a relationship and/or live together without getting married. or in a relationship but live separate lives/separate homes/separate bills, which is what I do. we're both financially independent and independent in other ways, then we get together like couples do, and later go back to the comfort of our own home. as far as money goes, I don't believe in the "what's yours is mine and mine is yours." I earned my own and you earned your own money. gifts are the exception, but other than that, earn your damn own and hold your own ground. most people that I know think I'm crazy for having so many plushies and think I'm wasting money, but my bf adores the way that I adore them or he might be biased because he likes me, but anyone, who thinks my plushie expenditure is frivilous and superficial, is my enemy for life
I can't fathom how some people buy or spend their money on certain things that I don't find interest in lol but that's why I don't buy those things and they do, which is their choice, but sometimes you should be considerate of the other person if you do choose to have joint accounts,etc. swiping a credit card to buy an engagement ring with money that he didn't earn, but on layaway payment if he even makes payments, isn't romantic or sincere, rather tacky and scrubbish since he already has bad debt. don't credit card companies quickly cut their max limit or stop their credit card altogether if he sucks at making payments?! he can keep using and overcharging?!?
i dont know maybe its just me but i think its really really REALLY dangerous to be in a long term relationship (i.e marriage) with someone who has money problems. i'm a little worried for you. I say proceed with caution coz you could end up in a situation where his debt becomes your debt. its up to you whether you decide to stay but just be really cautious. I'll also leave you with maya angelou's words which i'm sure you've heard. " when someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time." good luck.
A guy that does't keep his promise? Now that's a hard pill to swallow, please reconsider.
Ugh, stay away from guys with debt! They turn into leeches and will suck your savings account dry with "babe, can you help me out this once?" and whatnot.