If you'll please pardon me for a minute while I get on my high horse, as the "who pays for the date" debate has been brought back into the circle alongside its relation to feminism, I can't help needing to express my opinion on both ordeals (especially since I feel like I started this mess).
A fellow reader made a comment on the recent post that most women hate feminism. Any woman who says she hates feminism either doesn't know what the word means or is an alien. Without getting too much into a history lesson here, there are three waves of feminism.
The first being in the early 1900s where we earned our right to vote. The second being in the 60s and 70s where we exerted our equal rights in the workforce and pushed to dissolve the gender roles granted to us by society at the time (housewife, stay at home mom, dependent on husband/man, limited career options, etc.) The third being a current wave giving us the beautiful option to choose whether or not we want to be homemakers (and proud of it) or own a business... or both!
The last two waves, I think, are still overlapping today.
There's a battle going on between those two waves, the second one not understanding why some women of today would choose to stay at home and not work after their predecessors have worked so hard to pave the way for women to become a powerful figure in the workplace. On the contrary, we're grateful to have the choice.
If you look at statistics 50 years ago, you wouldn't see women being the dominant sex at most college campuses. You wouldn't see a woman in the White House as Secretary of State or Defense. You sure as hell wouldn't see one trying to run for president.
While we may still feel the word "feminism" has a negative stigma, I find it hard to believe that a woman would reject the idea so completely mainly because half of the opportunities available to her would not be possible if not for the feminists movements of the last century.
For instance, this crazy woman who told an all-male audience that dating a feminist is a bad idea would not have been able to give such a talk to an all-male audience were it not for those same feminists who paved the way to allow her to do so. I mean, for heaven's sake there was a time women couldn't even talk about political issues with men. At all. Whatsoever. They were sent out of the room.
The movements have certainly garnered respect for women, and in that regard I could see why there would be a logical connection (perhaps a bit of a stretch) for a man to want to split the bill with his date.
If a man asks me out on a date that he planned, I would absolutely expect him to offer to pay the bill. Would I still make sure I was financially ready to take care of my half? Absolutely. And would I offer to help? Of course.
I would not feel disrespected or less equal to a man because he offered to buy me a steak. I would be flattered and look forward to a future time I could pay him back, whether that means a home-cooked meal or a fun date within my own budget.
Would you agree or disagree? Have we beaten this dead horse enough to put it to rest?
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Comments (69)
I'm a bit surprised that you think this is a dead horse. The corpse is so mutilated that I can't even tell what it is.
@Nous_Apeiron@xanga - It's a horseburger patty!
Out of all the women in the world I'm sure there is at least one who can say honestly she hates feminism, provide you a valid definition of the word, and prove she is, in fact, human (assuming that's the type of "alien" to which you're referring).
I still think it's odd that one of two equals would ever "expect" the other to pay, regardless of how they ended up at a table together. Being happy/flattered/whatever that they offered, sure. That's far more understandable to me than feeling like you're entitled to be paid for because you did the oh-so-difficult task of agreeing to eat a meal together.
if you started any "mess" i'm pretty sure nobody remembers that it was you.
when i was younger--not much younger, mind you--i used to hate the idea of dating a feminist. but i've come to realize that it's that type that has all the qualities i just find so irresistibly sexy. there used to be a reader here on d-ish that was super feminist and i had a total xanga crush on her. i never thought i'd say this, but penis envy is totally fucking hot.
@Nous_Apeiron@xanga - hahahahahaah you have NO idea how hard i laughed at that.
That's a quote that strikes a chord with me. I was told something similar just yesterday, that it either made me a troll or an ignorant misogynist.
What does it say about your movement if this is the general consensus of anyone who disagrees?
I think when most women (or people in general, really) think of feminists, they think of women who think men are all dogs and that women are far superior, blah blah blah. I don't know anyone who wishes women never got the right to vote or anything like that. Equality, not superiority, is what most women want.
At least, that's what I want. -shrugs-
@FallenReign@xanga - I completely agree. It's a severely misunderstood phenomenon, but all in all, if everyone truly understood what it was about, then I don't think anyone would ever object. I mean, if we were having this discussion about black people being treated equally, like our society did 50 years ago, then anyone who objected would be called a racist. Why is this any different?
@Grtt@xanga - One of two equals still has to menstruate, gestate, and birth! How's that for not fair or equal? lol
I agree!
@TiredSoVeryTired@xanga - Send your regards to mother nature. You're pissed off at the wrong people.
@Grtt@xanga - I see the practice of treating someone to a meal differently. The reason why I think it's expected for the person who initiated the date to pay is because in my family, whoever invites someone out to eat pays. And since everyone takes turns, it evens out. I also have close friends who grew up with the same cultural practice, so as we grow older and obtain steady incomes, it's something we've started doing. To me, it has nothing to do with equality or gender. I guess it's because food is a medium through which we show affection. But that said, I always insist on paying my own on a first date.
@TiredSoVeryTired@xanga - You know what really disturbs me about that comment?
It's not the fact that you point out an obvious biological difference between male and female members of our species. That's a good point.
It's not the fact that you point out that most women do have difficulties that men do not have. That's fair.
What bothers me is the leap from menstruation to birthing. Women really don't "have to" give birth like they have to menstruate. Women have always been quite capable of choosing whether or not to have children.
Maybe that's not what you meant, but as a feminist the implication concerns me.
One of the real oddities of the feminist movement has been a tendency to insist upon the existence of female agency while at the same time subtly denying it. It reminds me a bit of the men who believe that women have the agency to want sex but that women couldn't possibly have the agency to express their preferences verbally so clearly the man just needs to take her. There's this strange notion embedded in their view that women are moral agents and yet not moral agents depending on whether or not it's convenient for whatever they're trying to rationalize.
I don't like it being equal. my guy is arrogant if not more arrogant than me and we try to PWN the other, so it makes things more challenging and exciting than just splitting things up. I want a guy, who fights me to do the dishes and fights to get things done because we're both perfectionists
then we battle it out to see who is sexier
that's what keeps the passion alive
if he pays for one date, then I'll be like...OH YEAH, I'LL GET YOU NEXT TIME
some of the people, who make it into a big deal just isn't compatible with the other and should just not go on the dinner date at all.
@Nous_Apeiron@xanga - I simply meant that women are the only ones who menstruate, get pregnant, and have babies. I did not mean that every woman has to do all the above nor that she isn't a true woman if she opts out of any of them. That's all I meant. I certainly do not believe any woman or person for that matter has to have children.
If i invite someone out to dinner, I will pay for them because its the polite thing to do. Feminism shouldn't even be an argument here.
When its just my husband and i, we dont make a big deal out of it. That would be exhausting.
@Lynn Males@facebook - Don't be silly. I have a period because I'm a woman and there's no reason why I should have to or want to opt out of a period. If my body is not pregnant, nursing, or past menopause I should be having a period.
If two people decide to have their own biological children the natural and healthy way (it is healthy for women to be pregnant and nurse as far as protecting themselves against breast cancer), there's only one real option and that is the wife getting pregnant and having a baby.
@Kazydai@mancouch - Wrong people? I'm not pissed off at anybody. Just stating that naturally speaking, life ain't fair.
@Lynn Males@facebook - Its really ignorant to say that women can just take pills to get rid of periods and what not or have surgery. Do you even know the side effects of doing that shit?
What physical pain does a man have to go through every single month? None. Be thankful for it and move on.
@Lynn Males@facebook - Having regular periods is healthy, and it lets you know you're not pregnant. You're hilarious.
@Lynn Males@facebook - I have also met a woman who would skip periods with the aid of her birth control pills. It caused internal bleeding.
I know this isn't meant to be a discussion about birth control, but you guys are forgetting the injection! Side effects vary, but after a couple of injections my periods stopped and I loved it! Why? It's one less hassle to deal with. :)
As for the feminism aspect, I would never claim to hate feminism but at the same time, I do consider myself a BIT of an anti-feminist. The choice is great, but I could have also lived happily being a housewife with no obligation to work outside of the home (something that is more dependant on economics than gender equality, but many women do feel that they HAVE to do it all now), even if it meant a little less freedom. Heck, as long as I'm not treated badly, I'm not against being 'owned'.
Feminism isn't needed anymore in 1st world countries, just like unions.
They were both formed during a backwards time in our society when men could do whatever they wanted to a woman and she had no rights.
Laws were changed, society was changed. Sure there are still mysoginists. But there are still bullies and dicks and losers out there, they will never go away.
FOCUSING on Feminism today distracts you from accomplishing things...in fact, it may alienate you from general society.
If you focus on giving back to society, on improving your own life, then you will see there isn't any barriers
@TiredSoVeryTired@xanga - You're right, it isn't. But only men are ever expected to sacrifice on the behalf of women, not so much the other way around.
I agree with you.
Also, I think the debate over "who pays for dinner" is really absurd. And I still can't quite figure out why everyone argues about it? It's not that complicated. Unless someone holds a gun to your head and forces you to pay for your dates meal, you're not being forced. It's your CHOICE.
Hey, I've taken a friend out and paid for them, because I wanted too. I don't bitch about it. If I ask to TAKE SOMEONE OUT, I would be the one paying. Just saying.
But that's just me. If people have their preference and expectations, just put them out there. If the other person is entitled or doesn't agree, then don't go out with them. SIMPLE AS THAT.
It doesn't have to be so freaking complicated.
and the gender wars that go on around here. *shakes head*. Yeah, we're really accomplishing something with that, aren't we. *rolls eyes*.
I believe in treating ALL PEOPLE with EQUAL respect. Men and women are and will always remain different in many ways. That doesn't mean one of us has it "worse" than the other and we certainly don't have to bitch about our differences. We all weren't given a choice in what gender we were, so lets just be thankful. We all deal with our issues. Fighting about it isn't going to solve anything. It's really, in my opinion, super immature. People just need to suck it up and get over it.
@Statuess - Being a housewife doesn't make you anti-feminist. You can choose to take that path in life and that is fine. @testyman666@xanga - Yah the fight is over and we are totally equal. That is why women make less money than men. @Lynn Males@facebook - I'm not sure what you read, but I definitely didn't say anything about pregnancy so I'm unsure why I was included in that. That gives me the impression that you didn't even read what I had to say, because you are too focused on getting your own opinion out.