Monday, 06 February 2012
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Men's Rights
The "hot topic" that seems to be buzzing around Xanga is men's rights to an unborn fetus (I call it a fetus because in the time frame that you can have an abortion, the fetus has no more cells than a plant). I've seen numerous opinions about a variety of issues that come along with this subject and to save myself from going a little crazy, I feel like it's something that I need to get off of my chest.
The most popular reasoning that people is that it's unjust for a women to "murder" when the father wants to keep it and that the "women have to go through emotional and physical difficulties" argument is invalid. I can see how people could see it that way but let's remember that being pregnant is no walk in the park. It's easier for some and hard for others.
A bit of personal story, when my mom was pregnant with me she went through a lot of medical problems, which led to her almost dying while she was giving birth. I can say one thing, growing up without a mother and a father who wasn't in the picture would have been the worst thing in the entire world. So you see, being pregnant isn't always a "just suck it up and do it" concept, especially when it's an unwanted one.
The question that I'm asking is, why do women want more freedoms but are for men having more control on what we do with our bodies and when it comes time to decide if we keep the fetus or not? If men were to gain the rights to the fetus, it would mean that our society would go back in time a few hundred years. Way back then, women did not have a say in anything.
We were told how to dress, where to go, who to talk to, what our chores where, etc. Women weren't even allowed to divorce their husbands under any circumstance and were forced to stay home with the kids while the men went out to work. I'm not saying we'd go back to that completely but I think it would be a step in the wrong direction. Women have had to fight for rights to their lives and bodies; thankfully now we do have those rights. It would be an entirely different story if we could have the man carry the baby in his stomach but sadly, that hasn't been invented just yet.
In custody battles, the child will more than likely be placed with its mother. How is that relevant? Well, the woman is often looked at as the caregiver. Yes, there are a lot of men out there that are able to take care of their own children but in the eyes of the law, it's preferable for the woman to be the main provider. To have the most say when it comes to her child. It should be the same when it comes down to wanting to go along with the pregnancy or not. I'm not saying she should go and do it without telling the father and discussing it if he is in the picture, but it is ultimately her decision.
What are your thoughts on this issue?
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UnconventionalButterfly@xanga - About Me: Imperfection is beauty, madness is genius and it's better to be absolutely ridiculous than absolutely boring. — Marilyn Monroe
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Comments (169)
I agree with your sentiment. I think that it should be discussed with the man, but ultimately, it is her decision.
absolutely woman's choice
My feeling is: if something is growing in my body, and FEEDING off my body, then its fate is up to me. If that bothers you, go get your own uterus.
If women have the right to choose, then men should have the right to drop parternal responsibility.
@QuantumStorm@xanga - This is the only fair answer.
Yeah, think I've said just about all I have to say on this topic. Extensively, lol.
@QuantumStorm@xanga - Completely agreed.
Years ago I wrote an entire short story on this exact subject. Maybe I'll repost that one day....
@QuantumStorm@xanga - That problem lays with the legal system and the double standard it holds about men when it comes to children. I believe in a woman's right to choose and a mans right to walk away. I do notice fairly often from many pro-life people, that they say "If a woman doesn't want to get pregnant then she should just not have sex!" and I rarely ever see that comment extended towards men who leave their children, etc.
Do you think that if the man wants the child, that he should be able to force her to carry the child to term? I don't think I've ever seen a clear response about that from you and I'm curious because you have been very involved (from what I have seen) in this discussion over the last few days.
@Saridactyl@xanga - Well, assuming that we make full allowances for a pro-choice approach, then obviously the woman has the final legal say. I'm pro-life so in an ideal situation, my concern would be to ensure the maximum preservation of life where possible, irrespective of the man's, or woman's, feelings on the matter. But since we live in a pro-choice society, my ideal world isn't quite relevant from a legal perspective. If we banned abortions, for example, we would effectively be making the woman take responsibility - and in that situation, I think it would be fair to make the man take responsibility, too.
@QuantumStorm@xanga - They do, every day. Men leave and don't take care of their children physically. The only real responsibility they have any more is financial, while the woman has to be there to take care of the children by herself after a relationship ends. The money he spends on child support pales in comparison to the feeding, nurturing, chauffeuring, tending while sick and giving up of free time and woman does regardless of time, place or how sick she may be herself. I've been a single mom after my first marriage broke up (for the record, I was the one who left because he was abusive). My ex was paying a paltry $300 a month in child support while I was working two jobs and taking care of everything else, including driving over to the library by the ex's house to help my son with his homework four days a week because the ex had our son after school but was about as useful as tits on a chevy.
Men have options, and they use them.
@ZombieMom_Speaks@xanga - Not all cases are situations where men willingly choose to abandon their kids. In some cases, the mother doesn't want the men involved in the child's life in any way besides child support (and in some cases, the women will avoid pursuing child support altogether because they fear the man will use that as leverage for child custody). And then there are cases where women puncture condoms, dig them out of trash cans, etc. So it's not a one-sided, black-and-white situation. The difference, though, is that one situation can be pursued in court and the other is perfectly acceptable under law.
If men drop child support, they can be fined, have their drivers and business licenses revoked, and even be sent to jail.
The issue here is that there's a fundamental double-standard that exists irrespective of any potential for abuse on either side. We allow women to abandon parental responsibilities but we tie men's responsibilities to the woman's choice to her body. Even if it is a choice as to her reproductive rights, men's parental responsibility is inexorably tied to that decision, which means her individual choice affects his rights, too.
@QuantumStorm@xanga - I'm not against this.
When there's a widespread male birth control that's just as effective as the most reliable female BC's and when we have a society that doesn't punish women and reward men career-wise for having a family, then we can talk about male rights to keep, support, or not support a child. Women's bodies are not put on earth to be fetal incubators. To use someone's body as a means to an end violates their autonomy and is therefore unethical.
I don't think you're framing the "men's rights" argument properly. It's clearly not about giving men the final say on the issue, as no one thinks the father should be able to decide that a child be aborted when the mother wishes to keep the child. Rather, it's saying that both parents lay a claim oh the life of the child, and so the choice to terminate it must be a joint decision. I think QuantumStorm'sargument has some merit here, as the widespread acceptance of child support offers precedence that fathers have rights and responsibility.
My personal opinion is that women's rights are an extension of individual rights, and that no one should be forced to care for another individual without explicit consent.
My thoughts?
hehe.
The BABY may grow inside MY BODY, but it's still OUR baby. In other words, I think he SHOULD have a say and his opinion on the life of HIS child SHOULD COUNT.
I couldn't imagine the situation being reversed and having to watch my SO murder our baby, because it was inconvenient for him and then telling me my opinion doesn't count, becuase it's not my body. To me, that's just selfish. And I know that pregnancy is no walk in the park.
Just sayin'.
@QuantumStorm@xanga - I did. Things got worse. He was a mean bastard. By law I do agree there should be something men can do to protect themselves if they didn't want a baby in the first place, but how would we go about that?
@QuantumStorm@xanga - I think that would be fair.
Can I also add that a pregnancy can negatively effect a woman's education or career? Sometimes women can get through most of their pregnancy while going to school/working. But often you see women dropping out of school, or at least taking a semester off. For those women that want the child, it is totally worth it to them. Many working women have planned pregnancies with their spouses, because they are willing to be set back a bit professionally (or loss the income if she isn't on maternity leave) to have kids. But that should be HER decision to do that.
I think this conversation would get much more interesting if we throw in the pregnant woman is actually a minor. I know there has to be some states where you need parental consent. Yay? Nay? If anyone wants to write a post on that, that would be a bit more interesting.
Thank you. Nice put.
@ZombieMom_Speaks@xanga - Simple. Give men the option to drop parental responsibility. As long as we live in a pro-choice society that favors individual rights over responsibility, then we must grant that right to men as well. Otherwise we're just half-assing things here.
(Also, I had deleted that last line about you pursuing the option in court because I figured it was presumptuous on my part to imply that you didn't already do that. At any rate, sorry to hear that it got worse. Guys can be bastards like that.)
@QuantumStorm@xanga - Nah, just him. He's a special kind of bastard.
I'd back the dropping of parental rights thing if the child wasn't already born and bonded with the guy. It seems fair. Legally, is there a precedent? If there's already something on the books it's easier to use that than try to make a new law from scratch. A lot of women either don't want the hassle of dealing with the guy if they intend to abort or he's a one night stand and they want the job of raising the baby to be theirs alone. I think other women would be in favor of it too.
That digging condoms out of trash cans thing - I've never heard of that. Damn that's gross. I can't even imagine.
@ZombieMom_Speaks@xanga - Legally, there is no real way for a guy to get out of child support - even in cases where he was raped, or situations where it was statutory rape (eg: the infamous cases where female teachers sleep with male students). Those cases are rare but do occur, and the rulings therein set the legal precedents.
With the Bradley Amendment, things get even worse. In one case, a contractor was held hostage in the middle east and eventually freed, only to be arrested the very next day by US law enforcement because he was behind on child support payments. Because, y'know, being kidnapped and held hostage shouldn't stop a man from paying child support, according to the Amendment.
So, all in all, it will be a legal uphill battle as far as this is concerned.
And yeah - you'd be surprised at what lengths women will go to, to get that child support payment. My biggest problem with child support is that it's not transparent. I think that if an argument for child support could be made, that some level of transparency ought to be introduced - for example, records of receipts, etc. And in a lot of cases, the child support is factored based on the man's income, which means that with a lot of the higher-income men, a woman can receive a substantial paycheck - with no transparency on her end whatsoever.
A few sentences that bothered me:
(I call it a fetus because in the time frame that you can have an abortion, the fetus has no more cells than a plant). - So a plant is a fetus? This argument makes no sense. I call my car a dog because its' made up of metal parts like a watch. ...
If men were to gain the rights to the fetus, it would mean that our
society would go back in time a few hundred years. Way back then, women
did not have a say in anything. Can you give a concrete example of this? I've heard the "back in the day" argument before, but it's very vague.
We were told how to dress, where to go, who to talk to, what
our chores where, etc. You were? Hmm...sounds like childhood, and going to my job.
Women weren't even allowed to divorce their
husbands under any circumstance and were forced to stay home with the
kids while the men went out to work. Wait...was "not being allowed to divorce" a law in America ever? FORCED? Hmmm...it seems to me that women married because they wanted the security of a home and family, and that came with the JOB of taking care of a home and family. How is this being forced?
@QuantumStorm@xanga - I've seen people propose that idea before and the thing is, a lot of people would abuse that law to get out of paying child support. Hell, a lot of people do that now.
@NightCometh@xanga - Open a history book.