I was talking to two friends yesterday, who claim that in order to not look selfish in a relationship, they decide not to say what they mean when they want something ("no" means "yes").
I'm already aware that girls do this to try to make the relationship "natural" in which everything flows in a way to where the man can read the woman's mind, and finish her sentences, and so on. But really, that is crazy, and here's why.
I, as well as every man, like being told when "yes" means "yes", and "no" means "no". "No" does not mean "yes" by any means, because "no" is an indicator of a negative, whereas "yes" is an indicator of a positive.
In short, to all men:
Yes=/=No
No=/=Yes
Yes=Yes
No=No
Women try to hide this in order not to look selfish, then get angry because we didn't read their mind. News flash- Men are not mind readers.
Sure, there are those rare relationships in which you see things are "natural", but trying to condition the average man into that mess is fucking bullshit, not to mention manipulative, which leads me to my next point.
Which would guys rather deal with? Well, I asked some guy friends, and they said they would rather deal with a female who was openly selfish, rather than one who was manipulative, because by the process of being manipulative, you are also being selfish at the same time. Consider it: Why should you say the opposite to your boyfriend/husband concerning what you want from them but still want the desired outcome to still happen? What prevents you from being honest and just saying it instead of trying to train us into becoming your mind slave?
The answer I got to this, was an undesired one, in that it seemed unreasonable. "Because if we spoon-fed you through everything, you wouldn't know us.",or "to make men think", indicating that women believe that by being honest to men, they are actually hurting them, and are not learning their girlfriends.
(This goes back to the "natural relationship theory" I suppose.)
I am a realistic individual, and could never hope to have a natural relationship (although I'm not going to strike out the chance), I do however, want an OPEN relationship, in which we can talk about what is on each other's minds for ease of communication. I personally believe that if both parties were more open in terms of communication, they could tell what the other wanted, and it would create a relationship that wasn't "natural" per se, but open enough that both would know what to expect from each other, rather than the female saying something, the man second guessing, then having to ask his guy friends about what she really wants, and neither of us knowing, so we do what guys do, and take things literally and risk you getting unnecessarily angry at us for no reason.
In short ladies, please tell us what you want. Sure, its selfish, but it's not like its something we don't expect. Being manipulative is only hurting your cause. We aren't puppets you can train. If you want a natural relationship, be open and direct in terms of communication with us, and we can go from there.
Thoughts?
True
Comments (34)
My husband tells me all the time "I will not guess about what you want. I will not pretend I have any clue what you are hinting at. I can't read your thoughts. Just straight up tell me what you want."
I think women, in general, are just bad at expressing thoughts/desires/wants. I know I struggle with it. I try very, very hard to tell my husband what I'm thinking, whether it's good/bad/important/silly....I'm slowly getting better. I don't think I've ever been manipulative. But I definitely don't always say what I mean.
Also, women will learn a lot quicker that hinting and manipulative behavior won't work if they have a guy who has a backbone and won't put up with it, know what I mean? My husband flat out told me he wouldn't guess at what I might want, I had to tell him. It's a learning process on both sides.
Good post.
Agree, completely. Another part of it is, even if I can tell what you want, I want you to tell me what you want. I want to give you what you want (within reason), but first I want to see how much it means to you. If you're not willing to ask me straight up, how much do you really want it?
I have no idea what you are talking about. Really. If I want something to get done I had better make sure he knows what I am talking about it, or it will never happen. Why would I beat around the bush about that? It's faster and easier to just say, "This is what I want. I want that ring from the corner store in the mall," or "I want you to take out that trash bag full of deer guts." Those don't sound like selfish requests worthy of concealing, as far as I know.
When I look back in the relationships where I felt I had to "work hard" to get my meanings across, were the ones I expected the guy to just KNOW what I mean. I think I placed that quality with "common sense" and being "aware" of what's going on at the time. And the problem is... ONE of my exes just DID know. I didn't have to explain or tell him what I wanted because he just KNEW. He was very in tuned with my wants and needs and what not. So of course, after that relationship ended, I just ASSUMED it was the case and when it wasn't, that was a shocker.
I think the reason why my CURRENT bf and I feel our relationship is effortless because a) I ask A LOT of questions; when I'm curious, what I want to know, and all the why's in the world, b) he asks me direct questions and I answer them as best as I can and c) we handle our "issues" whenever they happen. I don't pretend everything is "fine" until I blow up over something stupid because I want him to just "get" why I'm upset. I keep telling my other girl friends, "GUYS ARE NOT GIFTED WITH A PSYCHIC POWER AS YOU ARE NOT GIFTED WITH THEIR SEX DRIVES!" We like to think guys are "SIMPLE" as guys themselves like to advertise they ARE, but neither of us are. Women may be predictable but we're not SIMPLE and GUYS are not simple because they don't have layers of emotions or battles with themselves (our little voices confuse us sometimes, no?).
The "selfish" requests are like... "I wish he'd write me cute little memos, know how to cheer up my day with a random flower or setting up a dinner reservation without my reminders..." or "I wish he'd pay attention to me when I point out something pretty for my future birthdays, know what I'm allergic to or remember which movies I'd like to see with him..." Women deem these "selfish" requests as selfish because they don't want to have to come out and SAY they want their bfs to do it. They want to be wooed with THEIR wants/desires in mind. But you know, subtle manipulation is PART of being selfish. And attempting to smooth out the unnaturalness because of their "selfish" interests doesn't equal NATURAL, EFFORTLESS relationships. It causes mixed signals and bumpy communications between people who SHOULD be able to TALK to each other about THEY do want.
Maybe I can do it because I KNOW I'm "selfish" and due to my being "selfish" I have no qualms about looking out for the interests of SELF. *(shrug)*
this post is very confusing? i don't know what you mean by a "natural" vs. an "open" relationship, and i can't think of an example.
i try to be open, while still not seeming like a bitch. for example, i would prefer if the guy pays for everything, but if i up and say that, i seem like a bitch. so i pay sometimes, and secretly hope he picks up most of the checks, because then i feel cared for.
sometimes i want him to show spontaneous acts of affection just because he wants to. for example, i want a guy to call because he wants to talk to me and wants to hear my voice or whatever, not because i asked him to.
is that what this is supposed to mean? stuff like that?
@JennyGee@xanga - I agree with you, there are certain acts that a guy should probably just do out of courtesy of being the man in the relationship...but there are other things that I agree with the OP that women expect men to understand. This is where the let down occurs, and most females get their feathers ruffled, because the man cant understand their "subtle" hints.
I had this conversation with a group of my friends a few nights ago consisting of both female, and male, and they were all couples. The females believed it was the males role to receive their subtle hints at what they wanted for Xmas, while the males blatantly stated that the females should tell them outright what they want. None of that subtle hinting stuff.
Bottom line, a relationship isn't a game...and stupid antics can put the relationship at risk. As a male, I do believe there are certain things we should do out of "chivalry" that's somewhat expected, but for all the females to expect the guy to know what they want is just absurd in my opinion.
"Which would guys rather deal with? Well, I asked some guy friends, and they said they would rather deal with a female who was openly selfish, rather than one who was manipulative, because by the process of being manipulative, you are also being selfish at the same time."
I don't agree. Sure, they *say* that, but when it's right there in their face, their reaction says otherwise. I am a direct person, but I have come across many men who either aren't direct or they don't like it when the tables are turned (I even tell people, I *thought* men are "direct". Well, apparently not all men). I suppose they don't like to have their egos bruised by a woman? Yes, communication is a good thing; however, once a man is made to "feel" as though he is *less* of a man then it suddenly becomes a problem. Go figure. Oh, and men are just as manipulative, if not more.
I'm tired of hearing this. Find a woman not a girl.
@JennyGee@xanga - Hoping the man pays for everything is bitchy, no offense, just being open.
This is such a classic topic, posted far and wide across the web. Because it's very true. My last relationship ended because my ex couldn't openly tell me what she wanted most of the time and expected me to guess. Of course, I would guess wrong so she'd get mad.
The girl I'm with now is as straight forward as you can get. For example, yesterday we had a conversation that went like this
Her- "Are we doing gifts?"
Me- "I kind of had the feeling that we weren't."
Her- "Good... (I shit you not, the next words from her mouth) I'm horny, get on the bed."
I LIKE THIS. A LOT.
and i'm trying pretty hard to be less manipulative. hopefully it's working.. D:
I have many thoughts on this. Relationships are not one way streets. I always tend to be more open if my boyfriend is open too. If I get lied to, and manipulated, then I will do the same to him. Treat others the way you would like to be treated!
But it does take someone like me a while to open up in relationships. It does make it easier if the guy is open, and makes a girl feel like she can tell him anything.
I don't like to manipulate, so when I don't want to do something I try to make it seem like it's okay, but my boyfriend is intuitive and can tell when I'm upset.
@amor_e_alegria@xanga - I'd say boys are weak and get their egos hurt by a girl being direct. I personally prefer directness over anything. Tell me exactly how you feel, well without being just mean for the sake of being mean about it.
@calisartangel16@xanga - Heh I was going to say something similar. How girls do that, but women are usually more direct.
@JennyGee@xanga - Think it's a little different. And by natural I think he just means when women want a guy who knows them and can figure out what they mean even when they don't say what they mean. Open = a relationship where the man and the woman can both say exactly what they want anytime they want.
@Believe_InMe - Two wrongs don't make a right...heh.
I agree with your post. Honesty is the best policy.
my ex used to hate it when i didn't say exactly what was on my mind. i know, men don't read minds but there are a lot of guys out there that do the same thing girls do to guys also by playing the guessing game.
no! yes.... no.
def. no.
YES...jk no. hahaha. yes no yes no yes no...
:(
fine be that way!
I've been in relationships where I didn't need to say anything, I've been in ones where what I was thinking wasn't generally wanted (which was situational to the point in my life - so I didn't think much of it @ the time) and my relationship now, I just talk. Me & my bf argue more because I think more, I think ALL the time, and I'm always curious and he's just not... but even with the arguments... we learn more about each other. I feel like, we've grown closer together as we've grown as individuals. I never thought people could change, but you know what... my boyfriend has... he's changed a lot. In ways that profoundly benefit himself, which in turn benefit our relationship and me as well - which is I think the best way to change in a relationship... for yourself and if it benefits your relationship thats nice too. We were able to do it through open communication and honesty and just... no mixed signals. I tell him what I'm thinking when I'm thinking it if its important... and so does he. Its the best, healthiest relationship I've been in.
@amor_e_alegria@xanga - There is a difference between being direct, and being just plain rude. I'm rather sure that no one likes being picked apart and told about their every flaw. If a man cannot handle you being direct with them, then so be it. However, if you wish to be negative, then don't expect anything positive.
@calisartangel16@xanga - I would love to read a poston Datingish with that title.
Please consider!
@mewithoutu77@xanga - The reason i can think of men doing it these days are because some girls simply don't want to hear when men get straight up abou what they want. We might wind up saying what we shouldn't be saying, if we took that wish too seriously. So, in order to be honest, we need honest women, too.
you know what sucks.. when a girl says no and she means no but the GUY doesn't take the hint.
So either a girl is openly selfish or manipulative... Interesting. I wonder which one I am.
@SeeBeeWrite@xanga - wow.. deer guts huh? nice.
@mcmeister89@mancouch - Dude, Girls who want men to pay for everything are prostitutes. Point blank. Period. What is the guy getting in return? He better be getting laid at the LEAST, and OFTEN... and what other type of relationship can that possibly be OTHER than legal prostitution?
Women LOVE to go to the clubs and chant and rave about WHERE MY INDEPENDENT LADIES AT!??? Then expect a man to pay their way into the club and for drinks for them and all their girls? Ahahaha. Buy ME a drink and you wont have to buy my boys SHIT.
It amazes me that its almost 2010 and some women want to make their own money, but they STILL want the money YOU make too. Insanity. If prostitution was actually legal women would probably stop playing that game so hard... or either become hookers.
Maybe some women can't be straight up about what they want because in the past, their men didn't give it to them, or didn't listen. That's why.